<p>Beñatek dio: </p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="color: #444444; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 16px; line-height: 20px;"> 'jende handi' nekez singularrean erabil daiteke</span></p>
<p><span style="color: #444444; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 16px; line-height: 20px;"></span>Kasu horretan, jende handietarik dela edo horrelako zerbait erran liteke; bestalde, zuk proposatu handiki edo handikari kontzeptuari egokitzen zaizkiola iruditzen zait, galdera egin duenaren kasurako, bederen.</p>
<p>Bakartxo<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /><br /></p>
<blockquote style="padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left: #ff0000 2px solid;">> Message du 03/07/14 16:49<br />> De : "B. Oihartzabal" <br />> A : "ItzuL" <br />> Copie à : <br />> Objet : Re: [itzul] homme du monde<br />> <br />><meta />
<p>> 'Mundu' izenaren eratorriek ez baininduten osoki asetzen, 'handi' izenondoarekin zer egin zitekeen ikerka hasi naiz. Hona nire inkestatxoaren ondorioak (luzeegiak).</p>
<p>></p>
<p>> Komunzki,'jende handi' (pluralean) erraten dugu Iparraldean goi mailako jendarteko gizakien aipatzeko. Testu zaharretan, erregeen inguruko jendartekoak izan zitezkeen, baina egungoetan bestela ere erabiltzen da erran-moldea:</p>
<p>> <em>- Lehen ere, </em><em><span class="bilatua">jende</span></em><em> </em><em><span class="bilatua">handiak</span></em><em>, erran nahi baita jende aberatsak, bazoatzin uretarat </em>(Herria, Muslaria)</p>
<p>> <em>- Liburu saltegi batetan ari zitzaion 16 urteko semea ere, Eugene, egun oroz heldu zitzaion ikustera. Liburutegi horretan ikusten zituen hiriko </em><em><span class="bilatua">jende</span></em><em> </em><em><span class="bilatua">handienetarik</span></em><em> (abokat, mediku, politika gizon eta beste). Seme hau polizian sartuko zen</em> (Xipri Arbelbide)</p>
<p>> - <em>Ttantta Katixa-k erosi zituen treineko billeteak. Hiru klasetakoak bazirela, ez zituen lehenekoak hartu, jende handientzat zirela eta gu ez </em><em><span class="bilatua">jende</span></em><em> </em><em><span class="bilatua">handietarik</span></em><em> izanki..</em> (J. Dirassart)</p>
<p>></p>
<p>> Halere, argi da 'jende handi' horrek ez duela zehazki biltzen 'homme du monde' horrek frantsesez duen konotazio berezia. Bestalde, eta hau makur makurrago da, erran-molde finkatua da. Ondorioz, 'jende handi' nekez singularrean erabil daiteke, norbait aipatuz eta determinakuntza espezifikoa emanik (frantsesezko bigarren adibidean gertatzen den bezala). Halaber, ez du iduri, analogiaz edo, hartarik 'gizon handi' bezalakorik atera daitekeen, jauzi semantikorik egin gabe behintzat.</p>
<p>></p>
<p>> Horregatik, menturaz,<em> </em><em>handi-mandi </em>bezalakoak hobetsi behar lirateke. Hitz peioratiboa izanik hau (ez baitezpada 'homme du monde'), beharbada <em>handiki </em>hobestekoa da. Hegoaldeko testuetan tradizio handia du 'handiki' horrek (OEH), eta gainera, izen eta izenondo gisa erabilia izan da; beraz, gramatikari dagokionaz bederen, <em>gizon handikia </em> ongi eratua da. Haatik, ez dut nik intuizio garbirik 'homme du monde' horren parean eman daitekeenetz segurtatzeko.</p>
<p>></p>
<p>> Bide horretarik joanik, 'handikari' ere aipa daiteke menturaz. Ez du 'handiki'k bezalako tradizio finkaturik, baina halere badu. Erran-nahiaren aldetik zaletasuna bereziki adierazten du OEHaren arabera. Bizkitartean, ez naiz segur nahi ala ez horretan mugatzen dela. Adibidez, Erdozaintzi-Etxartek bestela ere arabili zuen;</p>
<p>> <em>gizarte hontan zapalduak eta zapaltzaileak bazirela, jende pobreak eta jende aberatsak, jende baztertuak eta </em><em><span class="bilatua">jende</span></em><em> </em><em><span class="bilatua">handikariak</span></em><em>, jende langileak eta jende manatzaileak</em>.</p>
<p>> X. Artolaren bi adibideak azken bi molde horietan itzilirik, hau ateratzen da<em> </em>(testuingurik gabe, frantsesez aldia zergatik aldatzen den ez dut ulertzen):</p>
<br />><meta />
<p class="MsoNormal">Il y a au centre Richelieu un homme du monde bien moins coupable que ne l'est Ter et qui savait, lui, qu'il s'en sortirait."</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><em>Bazen Richelieu zentroan gizon handiki bat, ez zena Ter bezain hobenduna, eta </em><em><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"></span></em><em>handik</em><em><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span></em><em>onik aterako zela zekiena.</em><br />> <br />> "L'homme du monde a demandé qu'on le mette avec des gens de « son milieu » parce qu'il « avait droit à des égards. »"</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><em>Gizon handikariak galdegin zuen</em><em>, begiramendu</em><em><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span></em><em>hartze zuelakoan,</em><em> hari zegokion jendarteko jendeekin eman zezaten</em>.<br />> <br />></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dena den, beldur naiz gaitz izanen dela holako kasuan ororen gustuko baliokiderik atzematea. <br />></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Beñat<br />></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">PS. 'Demi-mondaine: 'femme de moeurs légères' dio Petit Robert-ek, besterik gabe. Bada Websterrek eman ipuin bat, zeinetan 'mundutiar' erabilia baita behin eta berriz bizi arineko neskatxa baten aipatzeko (<em>Maisturuak egiten du botu bere othoitzen erditik, eskapatzen balin bazen, ezkonduko zela neskatxa </em><em><span class="bilatua">mundutiarrenarekin</span></em><em> eta mesprexatuenarekin</em>). Ez dakit, haatik, gaur egun hitz horrek biderik lukeen delako kasuan. Nekez seguraz ere. 'Gizonkari' edo 'gizonzale' erabil daitezke, beharbada. Testuingurua nolakoa den, gordin aire bat baitute biek. Bestela, 'arin' baliatuz ? Bada Monhoren bertso bat, OEHak ematen duena eta bi hitzak (<em>mundutar </em>eta <em>arin</em>) baliatzen dituena ('demi-mondaine' horrek duen konotazioarekin):<br />></p>
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<![endif]--><em> <br />> .</em><br />>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br />> Le 03/07/2014 11:07, kbiguri a écrit :<br />></div>
<blockquote cite="mid:BAC484DB-712A-49B2-8AA4-D442AD674F69@yahoo.es"><meta />
<div>Baina ez "mundutar" ez "mundukoi" ez "munduzale"k ere ez dute inola ere kutsu berbera. Erlijio kutsuko adibideak dira OEHkoak. <br />> <br />> Koldo Biguri</div>
<div><br />> El 2014 uzt 3, a las 10:32, Juan Garzia Garmendia <<a href="mailto:juangarzia@gmail.com">juangarzia@gmail.com</a>> escribió:<br />> <br />></div>
<blockquote>
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<div dir="ltr">Ikus OEHn "mundutar" eta "mundukoi".</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br />> <br />>
<div class="gmail_quote">Jose Agustin Arrieta<span><<a href="mailto:jaarrieta2@gmail.com" target="_blank">jaarrieta2@gmail.com</a>></span> igorleak hau idatzi zuen (2014(e)ko uztailak 3 10:23):<br />>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">Egun on: Prousten "Swann-enetik" itzultzerakoan, maiz egin nuen topo hitz honekin. Gehientsuenetan, "munduzale" formula nola-halakoarekin eman nion nolabaiteko ordaina. Beste bakan batzuetan, berriz, "gizon leinargi"-edo erabili nuela uste dut. Ez nago batere ziur asmatu ote nuen. Eta zer esanik ez Odette de Crezy-ren kasuan: "demi-mondaine" gisa aipatua da behin eta berriro, eta niri, ba, "erdi-munduzale" kalkoa besterik otu ez. Ongi izan, eta goraintziak.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br />> <br />>
<div class="gmail_quote">Dionisio Amundarain Sarasola<span><<a href="mailto:dioni@facilnet.es" target="_blank">dioni@facilnet.es</a>></span> igorleak hau idatzi zuen (2014(e)ko uztailak 3 10:05):<br />>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">Hona Bellokeko aita Marcelek bidali didan erantzuna. DIONISIO<br />> Marcel ETCHEHANDY<br />> 23:39 (hace 10 horas)<br />> <br />> "Homme du monde" = homme "de bonne société", aberatsa diruz edo jakitatez,<br />> bainan superfiziala. "Les mondanités" sakontasunik gabeko harremanei erraten<br />> zaiote. Aipu den "mundu" hori "moda"ren mundua da bereziki, gisa guzietako<br />> modak.<br />> <br />> Agur bero bat zuri.<br />> <br />> -----Mensaje original-----<br />> De: Xabier Artola Zubillaga [mailto:<a href="mailto:xabier.artola@ehu.es" target="_blank">xabier.artola@ehu.es</a>]<br />> Enviado el: miércoles, 02 de julio de 2014 10:45<br />> Para: <a href="mailto:itzul@postaria.com" target="_blank">itzul@postaria.com</a><br />>
<div>Asunto: [itzul] homme du monde<br />> <br />></div>
<div>
<div>Nola emango zenukete "homme du monde" euskaraz?<br />> <br />> Hona testuingurua (Bigarren Mundu Gerran, Paris liberatu eta berehala,<br />> Erresistentziakoek atxilotuta dituztenez mintzo dira):<br />> <br />> "Il y a au centre Richelieu un homme du monde bien moins coupable que ne<br />> l'est Ter et qui savait, lui, qu'il s'en sortirait."<br />> <br />> Eta aurreraxeago:<br />> <br />> "L'homme du monde a demandé qu'on le mette avec des gens de « son milieu »<br />> parce qu'il « avait droit à des égards. »"<br />> <br />> Eskerrik asko,<br />> <br />> Xabier Artola.<br />> <br />> <br />></div>
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