<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Konnotazio apur bat "klasista" ematearren, zergatik ez "munduduna"? Ez da oso polita, baina ondo osatua dago. <br><br>Koldo Biguri</div><div><br>El 2014 uzt 3, a las 16:47, "B. Oihartzabal" <<a href="mailto:b.oihartzabal@wanadoo.fr">b.oihartzabal@wanadoo.fr</a>> escribió:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
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<p> 'Mundu' izenaren eratorriek ez baininduten osoki asetzen,
'handi' izenondoarekin zer egin zitekeen ikerka hasi naiz. Hona
nire inkestatxoaren ondorioak (luzeegiak).</p>
<p> </p>
<p> Komunzki,'jende handi' (pluralean) erraten dugu Iparraldean goi
mailako jendarteko gizakien aipatzeko. Testu zaharretan, erregeen
inguruko jendartekoak izan zitezkeen, baina egungoetan bestela ere
erabiltzen da erran-moldea:</p>
<p> <i>- Lehen ere, </i><i><span class="bilatua">jende</span></i><i>
</i><i><span class="bilatua">handiak</span></i><i>, erran nahi
baita jende aberatsak, bazoatzin uretarat </i>(Herria,
Muslaria)</p>
<p> <i>- Liburu saltegi batetan ari zitzaion 16 urteko semea ere,
Eugene, egun oroz heldu zitzaion ikustera. Liburutegi horretan
ikusten zituen hiriko </i><i><span class="bilatua">jende</span></i><i>
</i><i><span class="bilatua">handienetarik</span></i><i> (abokat,
mediku, politika gizon eta beste). Seme hau polizian sartuko zen</i>
(Xipri Arbelbide)</p>
<p> - <i>Ttantta Katixa-k erosi zituen treineko billeteak. Hiru
klasetakoak bazirela, ez zituen lehenekoak hartu, jende
handientzat zirela eta gu ez </i><i><span class="bilatua">jende</span></i><i>
</i><i><span class="bilatua">handietarik</span></i><i> izanki..</i>
(J. Dirassart)</p>
<p> </p>
<p> Halere, argi da 'jende handi' horrek ez duela zehazki biltzen
'homme du monde' horrek frantsesez duen konotazio berezia.
Bestalde, eta hau makur makurrago da, erran-molde finkatua da.
Ondorioz, 'jende handi' nekez singularrean erabil daiteke, norbait
aipatuz eta determinakuntza espezifikoa emanik (frantsesezko
bigarren adibidean gertatzen den bezala). Halaber, ez du iduri,
analogiaz edo, hartarik 'gizon handi' bezalakorik atera daitekeen,
jauzi semantikorik egin gabe behintzat. </p>
<p> </p>
<p> Horregatik, menturaz,<i> </i><i>handi-mandi </i>bezalakoak
hobetsi behar lirateke. Hitz peioratiboa izanik hau (ez baitezpada
'homme du monde'), beharbada <i>handiki </i>hobestekoa da.
Hegoaldeko testuetan tradizio handia du 'handiki' horrek (OEH),
eta gainera, izen eta izenondo gisa erabilia izan da; beraz,
gramatikari dagokionaz bederen, <i>gizon handikia </i> ongi
eratua da. Haatik, ez dut nik intuizio garbirik 'homme du monde'
horren parean eman daitekeenetz segurtatzeko.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> Bide horretarik joanik, 'handikari' ere aipa daiteke menturaz.
Ez du 'handiki'k bezalako tradizio finkaturik, baina halere badu.
Erran-nahiaren aldetik zaletasuna bereziki adierazten du OEHaren
arabera. Bizkitartean, ez naiz segur nahi ala ez horretan mugatzen
dela. Adibidez, Erdozaintzi-Etxartek bestela ere arabili zuen;</p>
<p> <i>gizarte hontan zapalduak eta zapaltzaileak bazirela, jende
pobreak eta jende aberatsak, jende baztertuak eta </i><i><span class="bilatua">jende</span></i><i> </i><i><span class="bilatua">handikariak</span></i><i>, jende langileak eta
jende manatzaileak</i>. </p>
<p>X. Artolaren bi adibideak azken bi molde horietan itzilirik, hau
ateratzen da<i> </i>(testuingurik gabe, frantsesez aldia zergatik
aldatzen den ez dut ulertzen):</p>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Il y a au centre Richelieu un homme du monde
bien moins
coupable que ne l'est Ter et qui savait, lui, qu'il s'en
sortirait."<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>Bazen Richelieu zentroan gizon handiki bat,
ez zena Ter bezain hobenduna, eta </i><i><span style="mso-spacerun:yes"></span></i><i>handik</i><i><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span></i><i>onik aterako zela zekiena.</i><br>
<br>
"L'homme du monde a demandé qu'on le mette avec des gens de « son
milieu » parce qu'il « avait droit à des égards. »"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>Gizon handikariak galdegin zuen</i><i>,
begiramendu</i><i><span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span></i><i>hartze
zuelakoan,</i><i> hari zegokion jendarteko
jendeekin eman zezaten</i>.<br>
<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dena den, beldur naiz gaitz izanen dela holako
kasuan ororen gustuko baliokiderik atzematea. <br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Beñat<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">PS. 'Demi-mondaine: 'femme de moeurs légères'
dio Petit Robert-ek, besterik gabe. Bada Websterrek eman ipuin
bat, zeinetan 'mundutiar' erabilia baita behin eta berriz bizi
arineko neskatxa baten aipatzeko (<i>Maisturuak egiten du botu
bere othoitzen erditik, eskapatzen balin bazen, ezkonduko zela
neskatxa </i><i><span class="bilatua">mundutiarrenarekin</span></i><i>
eta mesprexatuenarekin</i>). Ez dakit, haatik, gaur egun hitz
horrek biderik lukeen delako kasuan. Nekez seguraz ere.
'Gizonkari' edo 'gizonzale' erabil daitezke, beharbada.
Testuingurua nolakoa den, gordin aire bat baitute biek. Bestela,
'arin' baliatuz ? Bada Monhoren bertso bat, OEHak ematen duena eta
bi hitzak (<i>mundutar </i>eta <i>arin</i>) baliatzen dituena
('demi-mondaine' horrek duen konotazioarekin):<br>
</p>
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</span></big></big><b><small><i><span class="bilatua"><span style="mso-ansi-language:DE" lang="DE">Mundutar</span></span></i></small></b></big><span style="mso-ansi-language:DE" lang="DE"><b><i> </i></b><i><span class="bilatua"><b>arinek</b> </span></i><i>/ Ez gazte
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bihotza </i><i><span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span></i><i>/
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
Le 03/07/2014 11:07, kbiguri a écrit :<br>
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<div>Baina ez "mundutar" ez "mundukoi" ez "munduzale"k ere ez dute
inola ere kutsu berbera. Erlijio kutsuko adibideak dira
OEHkoak. <br>
<br>
Koldo Biguri</div>
<div><br>
El 2014 uzt 3, a las 10:32, Juan Garzia Garmendia <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:juangarzia@gmail.com">juangarzia@gmail.com</a>>
escribió:<br>
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<div dir="ltr">Ikus OEHn "mundutar" eta "mundukoi".</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">Jose Agustin Arrieta<span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jaarrieta2@gmail.com" target="_blank">jaarrieta2@gmail.com</a>></span>
igorleak hau idatzi zuen (2014(e)ko uztailak 3 10:23):<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">Egun on: Prousten "Swann-enetik"
itzultzerakoan, maiz egin nuen topo hitz honekin.
Gehientsuenetan, "munduzale" formula nola-halakoarekin
eman nion nolabaiteko ordaina. Beste bakan batzuetan,
berriz, "gizon leinargi"-edo erabili nuela uste dut.
Ez nago batere ziur asmatu ote nuen. Eta zer esanik ez
Odette de Crezy-ren kasuan: "demi-mondaine" gisa
aipatua da behin eta berriro, eta niri, ba,
"erdi-munduzale" kalkoa besterik otu ez. Ongi izan,
eta goraintziak.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">Dionisio Amundarain Sarasola<span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dioni@facilnet.es" target="_blank">dioni@facilnet.es</a>></span>
igorleak hau idatzi zuen (2014(e)ko uztailak 3
10:05):<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">Hona Bellokeko aita
Marcelek bidali didan erantzuna. DIONISIO<br>
Marcel ETCHEHANDY<br>
23:39 (hace 10 horas)<br>
<br>
"Homme du monde" = homme "de bonne société",
aberatsa diruz edo jakitatez,<br>
bainan superfiziala. "Les mondanités" sakontasunik
gabeko harremanei erraten<br>
zaiote. Aipu den "mundu" hori "moda"ren mundua da
bereziki, gisa guzietako<br>
modak.<br>
<br>
Agur bero bat zuri.<br>
<br>
-----Mensaje original-----<br>
De: Xabier Artola Zubillaga [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:xabier.artola@ehu.es" target="_blank">xabier.artola@ehu.es</a>]<br>
Enviado el: miércoles, 02 de julio de 2014 10:45<br>
Para: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:itzul@postaria.com" target="_blank">itzul@postaria.com</a><br>
<div>Asunto: [itzul] homme du monde<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Nola emango zenukete "homme du monde"
euskaraz?<br>
<br>
Hona testuingurua (Bigarren Mundu Gerran,
Paris liberatu eta berehala,<br>
Erresistentziakoek atxilotuta dituztenez
mintzo dira):<br>
<br>
"Il y a au centre Richelieu un homme du monde
bien moins coupable que ne<br>
l'est Ter et qui savait, lui, qu'il s'en
sortirait."<br>
<br>
Eta aurreraxeago:<br>
<br>
"L'homme du monde a demandé qu'on le mette
avec des gens de « son milieu »<br>
parce qu'il « avait droit à des égards. »"<br>
<br>
Eskerrik asko,<br>
<br>
Xabier Artola.<br>
<br>
<br>
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